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Author Topic: OT (somewhat): methods for combatting spam?  (Read 896 times)
stapel
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« on: December 04, 2003, 02:41:40 PM »

We have all learned ways to avoid spam (don't put your e-mail address in plain text on your web page or in Usenet messages; don't click the "Remove me" links in spam; etc) and ways to deal with spam (filters, MailWasher, etc). But these don't solve the actual problem of spam.

Legislators are trying to come up with solutions, but these all seem to be of the "please be nice or we'll have to get medieval on your buttocks if we can ever find you" sort of thing. And the general problem, as I see it, is that you can't find the little scumbuckets in the first place. I see zero chance of the various laws having any effect, at least as things stand now.

So I was wondering: Do people here have any new and different proposals for dealing with spam? Not for handling it after the fact, but for preventing it in the first place. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Thank you!

Eliz.
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leighsww
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« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2003, 05:11:07 PM »

What I would like to see happen is that they pass a law that prohibits spammers from encoding their message.  Filters can't zap those because it's all in random garbage.  If people are following the anti-spamming rules, then why do they need to encode their message?  The only reason I can deduce is that they don't want us to put filters to keep their spam e-mails out of our inbox.

Also, e-mail spoofers need to be fined severely, because they hide behind someone else's addy/identity (I'm a victim of this - argh!).  Unfortunately, the Klez virus doesn't help with that matter either.

I've just about tried everything except outright change my domain name (which I can't do) and haven't found a solution yet.  Unfortunately, I've tried filtering software, but find that some of my clients' and potential customers' e-mails get zapped, as well, so I limit what I filter to the very minimum which still gets me close to a hundred spams a day. Also, some of the filtering doesn't work (ex: I have message body containing ".biz/" as a filter, but I'm still getting those coming through).

There are two criteria to the anti-spam law that I really want to see passed ...

1) No encoding of the e-mail (so that spam filters can work)
2) No selling or 2nd hand obtaining of e-mail lists.  Any marketing info sent to a recipient, MUST have had the recipient sign-up to receive info directly.

If legislators can at least put some of these type criteria on unsolicited e-mail, I'll be pretty happy and hopefully get my spam attacks down by at least half.  It's a start anyway.  Applause
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Hush
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« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2003, 05:48:13 PM »

It's about time that the serving systems changed to reflect the problems caused by software duping information.

For instance for many many years, you have been able to mail bomb, and change your from address... The techniques to do this are getting more and more advanced, to the point where you can mask most of the header, but the server systems not so.

It would be nice for e-mail to be officially stamped with a - this message originated here mark.  As simple as an IP address that your ISP can trace if required following a legal warrant.

Then to preserve annoymous mailling (some people have good cause to not  be traced directely back to their mail - don't ask, can't think of one but the human rights activists will scream if I don't mention this), specific national companies to provide this service - like VariSign for domain names.

A simple we charge $14.99 a year to provide you with a mail address (something like anything@usanonymousmail.com.us, or anything@ukanonymousmail.com.uk etc.

These would then limit down the anonymous maillers to those with a reason, or those that really wanted mail, but would, under a legal warrant, provided a trace back to the owner of the account.
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leighsww
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« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2003, 06:19:42 PM »

EXCELLENT comments, Hush!

I'm all for that!
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Hush
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« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2003, 06:28:44 PM »

There I was thinking I'd get peoples backs up.  There is no need to police everything that moves, especially the Internet, but we do need to place controls to protect people from things that really are a problem for everyone.

I'm lucky and have all my spam in one place, my MSN address.  Which is funny, as I didn't give that out at all, but as an experiment, left it, and 4 months later Spam City... Hmmm, wonder who sold that address !?!

However, spam is a huge global problem and we must stamp it out!  Evil or Very Mad
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leighsww
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« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2003, 07:35:15 PM »

Quote from: Hush
Then to preserve annoymous mailling (some people have good cause to not  be traced directely back to their mail - don't ask, can't think of one but the human rights activists will scream if I don't mention this


Human rights activists cannot scream (well, I guess they can cause of free speech and all - but I sure as heck am not going to listen) regarding the rights of someone hiding their identity when the perpetrators are doing it at the expense of other people.  This is then NOT a question or issue of their human rights.  Infringing on someone else's right when they don't want to be infringed upon (especially when in the guise of deception by hiding their true e-mail/identity or worst yet by using someone else's) is not a valid argument for human rights activists siding with the perps.

E-mail marketing needs to be done responsibly.  I'm not out to lynch every spammer out there (although probably darn close to most  Wink ,) it's mainly the ones doing it in a dastardly manner that get my tail feathers all in a dander!.  Grr..!!

It's the ones that try to "deceive" (like encoding their messages, or e-mail spoofing someone else's addy/identity, or having the tracing of the originator bouncing to 5 different countries around the world - if that ain't someone trying to hide something then I don't know what is) ...

Those are the ones that I really want to see stopped!

Quote from: Hush
There is no need to police everything that moves, especially the Internet, but we do need to place controls to protect people from things that really are a problem for everyone.

However, spam is a huge global problem and we must stamp it out!  Evil or Very Mad


Yes, I totally agree!

You know, as we speak I am getting all these undeliverables because of some Spammer using my e-mail addy to send spam e-mails to EVERY AOL user out there.  Now, can you imagine all the "deliverables" that are thinking I am sending these spams?!  Some are probably banning my domain addy because of this.  Crying or Very sad

Boy, this REALLY ticks me off!!  Double Aargh!!!

I guess this is one of the main reasons why I am so passionate about stopping spamming!   Grr..!!
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Woomera69
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« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2003, 08:52:53 PM »

Yes but you guys are missing the point of the problem that Stapel brought up...
You can put all these things in place for people who either want to follow the law or are too un-computer savvy to get around it, but that doesn't stop a Spammer doing what he's already doing anonomously.

You can't change the Internet, the Internet's the Internet...unfolding like it is like an apple going bad or a tree growing...or...or...something....
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leighsww
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« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2003, 09:14:23 PM »

Woomera69,

That's why I feel it should be against the law to send e-mail anonymously.  Why do people need to send e-mail anonymously?  It's because they are needing to hide their real identity.  Why do they need to hide their real identity?  Because they are sending something they think may be objected or not welcomed by the receiver.

So, if a law is passed that hinders people from sending e-mail anonymously, and have a way of tracing back to the account (like Hush mentioned) that would put a stop to most of those spammers who don't want to break the law.

Yes, there will still be some who will break the law but if their identity is traceable, then they will get caught and should be heavily fined.

Making their true identity traceable may not be easy unless the e-mail client software has something built in to make sure that this stays with the e-mail and cannot be changed, but dang if I can't at least hope that someday this will be possible.
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Woomera69
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« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2003, 10:12:06 PM »

That's the point.
any hack can send email anonymously in the current Internet environment, and I can't see how any law can change that.
The Internet is a living breathing and evolving 'being'. I can't see how 'we' can at this stage in it's development say 'whoa, hang on there this is a bit out of control here...let just put Pandora back in her box', no matter what laws or even attempted major ISP technology changes will have much Impact on the current problem of Spam.

Still, it's got so bad these days that I guess it might slow down the 'scumbuckets' (as one LP poster rightfully put it) who just buy lists from the sophisticated and tech savvy guys....
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Hush
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« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2003, 07:51:21 AM »

This is fairly simple, as with my original post.  ISP's in the UK certainly, not sure about the outside world are legally obliged to keep exacting logs of all activity on the Internet and who the user was at any given time.

So for instance, if you use a web browser to view a page, your ISP logs the page, and when you access it.  If you use an e-mail program to send a mail, the ISP logs that you sent an e-mail of x-bytes at that time.  If you use a peer-2-peer program, the ISP logs the file name and size of file you download as well as the time you download it.

The system in place is good so far, and has led to some interesting results.  However, it needs to go one step further to help stop Spam.  The e-mails we send can have headers changed and the reply address labelled to someone else.  This has been going on for years.  What we need is a legally bound system where every e-mail needs to be digitally signed by the ISP/Mail Server - after leaving the posters system, with the IP address it was posted from and the exact time.

This would make everyone except the elite (sorry 31173  Smile ) traceable.  Even seemingly anonymous e-mail addresses such as hotmail would no longer be imune.
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MishaPappa
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« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2003, 08:32:02 AM »

A point that seems to have been missed in all the rhetoric -- many high volume "spammers" are zombie PC's that are under remote or virus control.

Great article here: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20031203/wr_nm/tech_internet_spam_dc_4

Much of the attention here seems to be directed towards laws applicable "after-the-fact" or digital signatures to eliminate anonymity.  All these strategies do is drive illegal spammers further underground in the development of "zombie" tools -- then all the laws and digital signatures are worthless because the "suspects" are innocent bystanders who unwittingly allowed their PC to be zombified -- you can't regulate common sense or stupidity now can you?
 Sad

I agree that something must be done about spam... but also believe that part of the solution requires mandated and perpetually updated anti-virus protection on every device that can connect to the internet.  ISP tools could be developed, quite easily, that could validate an "anti-viral" signature for a connected PC and, at a minimum, prohibit POP/SMTP traffic for any of insufficient protection...

You could draw an analogy here from Television broadcasting -- many channels in the VHF/UHF spectrum are available and some of them in High-Definition.  Depending on your TV's technological capability, you may only be able to receive a few VHF channels... or many VHF/UHF channels... and also High-Def -- it all depends on your installed technology of CHOICE... much like the choice everyone has about installing and maintaining anti-virus technology.

The less technology you employ, the fewer services or capabilities available to you... a self-regulating, darwinian style solution.
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Misha
Woomera69
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« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2003, 10:08:39 AM »

Now you're talking...
That's the whole point too, spammers don't sit down at their own PC!
Really, do you think it's that simple? Even without the 'zombies', they can mask, hide and misdirect themselves in a multitude of ways....
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Hush
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« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2003, 10:12:24 AM »

The hardcore, know it all spammers do, but let's not forget that they are not as large in numbers as the casual, send spam for affiliate program spammers are.

Once we get rid of the HUGE amount of casual spammers, then we can look into the number of Spammers who are technical wizards.
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Woomera69
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« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2003, 10:17:59 AM »

OK. Fair enough. And a lot of the money in Spamming, tech 'Spammers', is in selling their lists and selling their technology for anonomity(?) and dodging Spam filters, to idiot marketers...I guess.
Something tells me the returns on Spam are abismal, but the returns on selling technology that, "once you have it, or once you have 'the' list, it's 'free", are huge!
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Ed
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« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2003, 11:03:24 AM »

Hey All Smile

I'm gonna throw in a little rant from a totally different point of view Smile hehe

<RANT>
First off.. Spam does work.. thats why they use it. A friend of mine about 7 years ago mass emailed about 60 000 people about his teen website (by that I mean his personal homepage/community for teens). He was getting a couple hundred thousand hits per month for about 4 years after that.. even though he never advertised it anywhere else.

Kata hangs his head for knowing a spammer (but he hates spam not too Smile

Anyhow.. with that addressed, I think the government needs to remove legislation against spam because face it - its the ethical publisher that gets burned. As a almost-former E-publisher the risks you face everytime you mass email a bunch of jokes to your double opt-in mailing lists is enormous. So many people email me saying they never subscribed and I'm spamming them. Luckily for me I just have to forward them a copy of their intial subscribe request and the problem goes away.

Most spammers out there are fairly technically competent, and not dumb enough to try mass emailing through their ISP or webhost. Its painfully easy to turn your computer into a high speed mailing device. Requiring no external mail server - it remotely communicates other servers IDing as an legit internet server and sends the email directly, without using someone elses mail server. I had to use one once when my mail server went down. Sent 3000+ emails in about 15 mins on a 36kb dialup connection. So by ISPs being really strict on how many emails you can send at a time, it doesn't do much to stop anyone that really intends to spam. (This is the same way all those viruses work.. they dont use any ISP).

If anything there should be laws made to allow hacking of spammers Smile lol
I know of a few cases where spammers have been totally taken out by hackers who receive their UCE. Maybe a lttle primitive of a method, but I personally beleive the internet isn't a medium that should be moderated. Leaving it open to a bit more of taking things into your own hands isn't so bad. Noone gets hurt if they actively look to protect themself, and everyone learns from it.

Thats what the term hacker actually means - someone who picks something apart to make it better. Crackers are the ones that the media calls hackers giving a bad impression to the world. I would personally identify with a hacker - I take things apart to make them better. Crackers simply destroy things or deface them, they have no concern as to how they get in (aka script kiddies), they just want to destroy.

By leaving the internet with less rules, it means that no one corporation gets the authoritative say on what happens. How would you like it if MS rule the net? I personally would probably leave the whole computing industry.. it would be a loss. By letting everyone learn, and help each other and use a little common sense there isn't much to be lost. By common sense, I mean that instead of sueing an ISP for not blocking your children from seeing porn on the net, teach them some discernment so that they know what a link to a bad site looks like, and honestly you have to be pretty dumb to not realize that! Besides.. we do have back buttons for honest mistakes. Instilling a basic morality of what is right and wrong is so much more effective than trying to block what they see. When I first started on the net I was in grade 6. My parents have never installed any kind of blocking software for what I see. Maybe its because they know I can get around it without much effort, but the point still stands. They didn't install it because they know I had a bit of common sense and a moral viewpoint that I shouldn't be looking at that stuff.

Re: anonymous email - its impossible to ban that. Its almost an oxymoron. You simply just have to create your own email server on the net, spoof your IP and voila your invisible as soon as you take it offline! Probably should break this rant up with a little bit of humour - one of my profs told us in my very first computer class that we shoul dnever send him death threats. Apparently some student sent one (wanting a higher grade). The stupid computer science student made up a fake hotmail addy etc and sent it from there, not realizing that he was logged into the computer at the school with his username and pass. 15 mins later they were all having a little chat Smile .. it takes a few brains to use anonymous email Smile

The whole spam issue is just a repetitive war - spammers get around filters, then filters get better and it repeats.

Spam is already looked down on by society so its in not real benefit for them to be known publically so its almost already as if they are outlawed. Making it officially illegal only will result in a few cases, the rest of the spammers are still goign to do their thing!

To conclude: I think spam should not be made illegal, and I'm very much opposed to laws regarding how the internet works or what it can be used for. The only effective laws are those that limit what we see in a country - child porn etc. They are enforcable if a case is ever found. Spammers can hide, because they connect and run. Perves have websites that are always up and runnig - they can be found and hunted down.
I'm pushing for an open internet, where everyone can take their own online justice into their own digital hands. A little common sense goes a long way. We have grown so comfortable in America assuming that we are safe wherever we go. Take a look at other countries.. they watch their step, they think before they act. People are more cautious and use a whole lot more common sense! Smile

</RANT>

/me wonders what hes started Smile

- Ed  Surprised
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