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Author Topic: Domain name dispute **[RESOLVED]**  (Read 1001 times)
HazardTW
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« on: January 24, 2008, 11:30:52 PM »

Is there anyone here that has had experience with domain name disputes?

I created and run a website for a friend of mine, for his business, he has been doing business under the name "Lenox Barns" for some 19+ years.

When I started the site for him just under a year ago, both lenoxbarns.com and lenoxbarns.net were being used, now they are not.

I just picked up lenoxbarns.net for him, but found that lenoxbarns.com has been picked up by Domain Cargo and list their selling price of the domain name to be $1,856.

I spent some time at ICANN's site doing some reading and they list three criteria needed to succeed in a domain name dispute:
1)       that the trademark owner owns a trademark(either registered or unregistered) that is the same or confusingly similar to the registered second level domain name;

2)       that the party that registered the domain name has no legitimate right or interest in the domain name; and

3)       that the domain name was registered and used in bad faith.

It being late at night I have not got word back from my friend whether or not he has registered a trademark, but I understand that a trademark does not need to be registered as stated in #1 above, but even so I think his business name would be considered his trademark under common law after 19+ years of trading his goods and services under that name.

#2 above seems self evident, the company was not the owner of the domain name a year ago, now they are and it is clearly for one purpose, to sell it for profit.

#3 'bad faith' seems to be defined by ICANN a number of ways, one of them being that if the domain name owner cannot show demonstrable proof that they are or intend to use the domain name in internet commerce or non-profit purposes, basically meaning they need to prove that they purchased the domain name in order to use it, not sell it.

So far in my research on this I feel like my friend has a good case here.

If anyone is familiar with such disputes, I would really appreciate your thoughts on this.

Thank you,

Brian.

« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 03:49:21 PM by HazardTW » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2008, 06:15:32 AM »

I would say you have pretty good standing, but from the battles I've seen (never been in any myself) these tend to get drawn out and rather nasty at times.  Might see how much of this you can do on your own, then later on you might want to get at least some legal consul on your side to help (depending on what the other side does too).  Wish you the best of luck and hopefully it won't be too difficult. 
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ReTodd
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« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2008, 08:20:33 AM »

The problem I've seen with most of these types of domain disputes is the companies, like Domain Cargo, price their domains at prices that make it cheaper to just buy it then the costs incurred to retain a lawyer to sue for ownership.
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HazardTW
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« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2008, 09:21:05 AM »

I have to admit that if they were selling it for $99 I would just advise my friend scoop it up and avoid any hassle but on principle I feel we should fight them.

I could understand negotiating a price if the domain name was in genuine use for a website, but places like this domain cargo really chap my hide, trying to make something from nothing.

I know their site says 'fixed prices', but I don't know what that means, given the range of pricing on the domain names it is selling, I was suspecting that the price was generated by a script that calculates the popularity of the name based on hits and searches.

I will contact ICANN about their dispute process and I will report my experience however it ends up here for others.
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MrPhil
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« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2008, 10:32:42 AM »

There's another thread going on about some registrar or something grabbing domain names for themselves as soon as you search to see if they're unused. Is that Domain Cargo doing the dirty deed?

Anyway, go ahead and see if ICANN has a quick and cheap arbitration process to deal with such domain squatters. If not, I agree that hiring a lawyer will cost you more than just paying the ransom in the first place -- just chalk it up to experience, and spread the word on who the unethical sites are that pull this kind of stunt. If the process can take a long time, it may not be worth the wait (loss of business) to get the name.

By the way, why is it so important to have all the TLD's for Lenox Barns? Don't most people search through Google or something, rather than typing in a possible domain name and hoping for the best? That's the way I do it, but maybe most people still assume it's business name .com? I could understand grabbing all the TLD's for a well known registered trademark like "ibm", but not for an "ordinary name". And that can get very expensive, given all the possible Top Level Domains out there (including all the national codes, e.g. .uk, .co.uk, etc.).
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HazardTW
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« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2008, 04:54:34 PM »

My friend has had people tell them they tried to look up lenoxbarns on the web but couldn't find his site, so he was real interested in getting the lenoxbarns.com.

As far as lenoxbarns.net, it was available and for $10 a year per domain name it certainly wouldn't break him to have and keep both the .com and .net.

All the research I did at ICANN leads me to believe that we have a solid case based on their regulations, and the current registrar where the name was registered advertises that they adhere to ICANN regulations.

My first step in initiating a dispute was to contact a listed domain dispute resolution service, the one I saw was Verisign, they advised me to make contact with the registrar though which the name is registered.

I sent that registrar an email asking how to initiate a dispute through them, the replied by asking for the domain name in dispute.

I have sent them the domain name and all the details that I could that challenge the current registrant's rights to the name and shows they registered the name in bad faith as defined by ICANN regulations.

It is late Friday so I don't expect to hear back before Monday, I will say that their first reponse was within 2 hrs. Smile

MrPhil:  Unless more registrars have picked up this practice, the registrar you speak of is Network Solutions(not sure if this will be filtered), when you perform a search from their website for domain name availability, they immediately register the name and offer to sell it to you.
They can do this without having to actually pay for the registration since there is a time frame of something like 30days before payment must be made, at that time, if nobody purchases it from Network Solutions, they just let it drop, and it becomes available again.
I did not read that they were charging any more than they normally charge for registration, the practice is only to snag more customers since it is losing so many to less expensive registrars.

OH, I just noticed I am a Pong!(the video game) Master. LMAO  Man that was a cool game... Am I aging myself?  Wink
« Last Edit: January 25, 2008, 04:59:02 PM by HazardTW » Logged
HazardTW
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« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2008, 05:04:19 PM »

I want to log my experience so that it may be helpful to others, this is not yet resolved but I will log my experience to date and update as needed.

1) Contacted a domain resolution service provider, was advised to contact the registrar where the domain is registered.

2) Contacted the registrar asking for dispute procedures, they asked for the domain name disputed.

3) Told registrar the domain name and provided an unsupported argument that the domain name was currently registered in bad faith.

4) Registrar informed me to contact the registrant directly and forwarded my argument to registrant.

5) Registrant contacted me via email saying they were reviewing my argument.

6) Registrant contacted me via email saying that they have removed the domain from being advertised for sale pending support of my argument, and asked for something that supported my argument.

7) I contacted my client and instructed him to provide all the publicly documented proof he could that he has been in continuous use of the trade name for 20 years to support our argument of common law rights to the trade name.

I have done a little more research and while my client has a solid case for common law trademark rights to the trade name, and there are many previous cases I have found that would indicate this is a slam dunk case, his trademark rights only extend to the geographical area in which he conducts, or reasonably expected to conduct commerce.

Of course as far as I know, the domain name in question has been owned by the current registrant for less time than I have had my client conducting commerce over the internet under that same trade name, just not the domain name, maybe that will help.
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HazardTW
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« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2008, 07:41:11 PM »

Webs of deceit.

Even after a follow up letter I still have not received any response from the registrant of the domain name in dispute.

I did do a little more digging though and found smoke and mirrors.

On the face of it, it was Domain Cargo that was selling the domain name, but the registrant is Maltuzi Holdings which might just even own the registrar Name King, I am not sure.

One thing that is for sure is that Maltuzi.com is connected to bad things in the internet world, do a search on them and their name keeps popping up in connection with scams like this.

It seems that their main activity is scooping up domain names to use for PPC advertising, and ultimately hold the domain name for ransom.

I don't know why they seem to be getting away with this for so long, it is disgusting.

Although I did turn up many results regarding Maltuzi, read this blog from 2006 for some interesting information.

This looks to have been going on for years, and I now have doubts that this company will even respond to me any more than the initial response, they have no morals whatsoever.

Now I just need to find a greedy lawyer looking for a class action suit, hey wait, did I say 'greedy lawyer'?

Isn't that like saying 'bright sun'?

This Maltuzi crap has me fuming but the worst part is, "I" don't have a beef with them, my client does, and it will be up to him to pursue this in court, it is most likely out of my hands now.

EDIT:  I sent an email to the owner of the blog I linked to above and received a reply from him that Maltuzi gave up the domain one day after sending them the letter threatening legal action, so I do have some hope, next step, talk tuff!
« Last Edit: February 05, 2008, 08:16:16 PM by HazardTW » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2008, 05:50:46 AM »

Very interesting to watch the progress of this as it goes along. Thanks for sharing! Smile
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HazardTW
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« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2008, 08:51:47 AM »

It looks like I missed the part where I sent Maltuzi copies of business licenses last Thursday, that was what I meant when I said I had not hear back from Maltuzi even after a follow up letter that I sent Tuesday morning asking if they received the documents via email.

Another thing is when they first responded, they said they were taking the domain of the listings of domains for sale.

They sure did, it's now one of those generic PPC sites.

Multuzi is that rare species that feeds off the underbellies of the bottom feeders.

That blog I linked to is nice, but I wanted to expose Maltuzi in places like this where there is a greater chance that it will be read by people that have been victims of Multuzi's crimes, and perhaps more people will start to stand up against them and those like them.

I do say crimes because what they do is a crime, some of it just not actually illegal yet, but a crime against society just the same, and some of what they do is blatantly illegal, just that it is a civil matter so as long as nobody does anything about it, they can just keep doing what they are doing.

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HazardTW
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« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2008, 03:48:36 PM »

***UPDATE***

I got tired of the snow job I felt I was getting and decided it was time to quit playing.

My research has led me to believe that arbitration is really not the way to go since the complainant is likely to be the only one shelling out any money, and many decisions I have read ended with the respondent never actually responding, they just ignore it until the domain name is taken away from them.

I contacted a domain dispute lawyer for a consultation, then sent a letter to Maltuzi letting them know that a week was more than enough time to review the information I provided, and that if the domain name was not released immediately I would have to advise my client, the business owner, to contact the domain dispute lawyer and proceed with a legal suit.

I sent that letter off last night, and by 10am I received an response asking for the whois information I would like on an account they would set up at their registrar and transfer the domain to that account, and send me login information to gain control over the domain.

As of 1:30pm I am in control of the domain, and have them pointed at my clients website and have a transfer request in to LP to get the domain transferred to LP/tucows registrar.

I think the lesson to be learned is that you don't have to let these companies push you around, they do not want to lose money fighting a legal battle they can't win, so if you have a legitimate case, pursue it seriously and pursue it in a way that if you have to spend money, so do they.

I am sure a lot of people have been in this type of situation and seen that paying the initial ransom for the domain they have rights to would be cheaper and less hassle, and just pay it, but the squatters win when that happens.

Score one for the little guy  Grinning Grinning Grinning
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~.chris.~
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« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2008, 04:46:31 PM »

Very Nice INDEED sir!  Clapping
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« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2008, 05:55:11 AM »

Whoo hoo!  Happy Happy Joy Joy
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ReTodd
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« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2008, 08:11:17 AM »

Awesome! Congrats! Thumbs Up
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